With all of the white supremacists, “alt-right” supporters, and neo-Nazis in U.S. government this year, it becomes clearer to U.S. readers that Rowling wrote Snape to be a reformed neo-Nazi who devoted his adult life to renouncing such ideology and remaining undercover so he could help similarly vulnerable students avoid repeating his mistakes. This group interview, Ex-Neo Nazis Explain What’s Driving the Alt-Right, could have been been about Snape’s mindset as a young man. It also hints at the effect on Dolores Umbridge when Dumbledore rescued her in the forest and the effect on Voldemort when Harry refused to attack him in the Final Battle.
In their October 2016 episode, the Three Patch Podcast, a podcast about the BBC show Sherlock, included an interview with Lorrie Kim comparing the characters of Snape and Sherlock. Deannah Robinson (deannahm03 at gmail) provided the transcript of the interview below.
******START OF INTERVIEW (00:00:25)******
Emma Grant: Welcome to the Notebook of Kitty Riley. I’m Emma Grant, and my guest today is a familiar voice to listeners of this podcast. Her name is Lorrie Kim, and she has recently written The Book about Snape. I’m saying The Book, literally, because it’s the best book about Snape that I’ve ever read.
Lorrie: Because it’s the only book about Snape.
Emma: Even better. First of all: Lorrie, welcome and thanks for coming to talk to me. Before we get into the details about your book, I should probably explain to our Sherlock listeners why we’re talking about Severus Snape. This is the Potterlocked episode, of course, and I think that if you’re a fan of both Harry Potter and of Sherlock, you’ve probably have noticed that there’s some interesting similarities between the two characters of Severus Snape and Sherlock Holmes, and so what we’re going to do is I’m gonna ask Lorrie to talk about those. But first, Lorrie, tell us a little bit about your book and how you got into writing it and what it’s about.
Lorrie: The book is called Snape: A Definitive Reading, and it’s a critical look at the Harry Potter series from Snape’s point of view. It’s the series that I wanted; I wanted Severus Snape and the Sorcerer’s Stone and Severus Snape and the Chamber of Secrets. It’s lit-crit, it’s not fiction, and it’s about this brilliant, rude asshole who has intimacy issues, whose heart turns out to be as great as his brilliant brain. This guy — who’s a Capricorn who was born in the first part of January — he is on the side of the angels, but he’s not one of them. You’d think he might have killed before, but it turns out that he only has killed once, and that time he killed for love.
Emma: This is gonna be so great. Okay. It’s amazing that I can’t tell who you’re talking about. It could go either way.
Lorrie: I have a type.
Emma: So you’ve already picked out a lot of the similarities between these two characters. What else can you say about how they’re similar and how they’re different?
Lorrie: Both of them, they’re so smart, but they’re never the smartest person in the room. And they don’t like people, but they’re around people all the time. They’re happiest when they’re alone or with their very few loved ones, and both of them have the kind of personality that always drives the plot. Not just because that’s their function in their story, but that’s just the kind of people they each are. They’re really offensive, they’re unlikeable and they’re immature. They expect to be disliked. It’s surprising to them when they’re not.
There are some major differences: Sherlock remains innocent much, much longer than Snape does, because Sherlock has grown up with a protector in Mycroft, and Snape did not have a protector. The dark side got Snape, and we see Sherlock resisting the dark side and choosing John over Moriarty. So Sherlock never betrayed John in the sense that Snape betrayed Lily.
When Snape fell, he didn’t realize what was going to happen to him until it was too late; he didn’t realize what he was doing. When Sherlock fell, he did it completely knowingly. Snape had a fall at an early age and then had this long redemption; Sherlock’s fall is more like when Snape knowingly accepts that he will kill Dumbledore and then takes all the incredible heartbreak that he’s going to cause to everybody who’s ever liked him or worked with him or had any bond with him.
When Sherlock, at Reichenbach Fall, decides to set things up so that everyone thinks he’s a fake and that everything they knew about him was wrong — that all of his enemies were right all along and he sets things up so that’s plausible, knowing he’s going to break John’s heart — he hasn’t ever done worse than that. That’s the first time he’s doing something that catastrophic. Whereas Snape, that catastrophe happened when he was a young adult, and he didn’t take on that knowing sacrifice until he was an adult, much, much later.
Another major difference — and this is in their characters — I always think of Sherlock as a solvent. He just dissolves everything he comes into contact with. He takes facts — he doesn’t think about whether they’re good or bad or helpful or unhelpful — he just sees them and solves them, deduces them and then after that, deals with what that might mean. That’s what makes him a loose cannon, and why you sometimes have to take away his toys.
Snape doesn’t do that. He’s not a solvent; he’s a strategist and he’s an inventor. He doesn’t take facts without their relative moral importance; he deals with feelings more than facts. He would not mistakenly say something that’s then going to undo all the good. You can take Snape anywhere; you can’t take Sherlock anywhere. You’re like, “Sherlock, NO, NO!” Can you think of any time with Snape as an adult that people would have to say, “Snape, NO, NO”? He doesn’t do that.
Emma: It’s so amazing, though, when you put these two characters next to each other and really look at how they’re similar and how they’re different. I guess there’s some appearance things that are– I mean, Sherlock Holmes is kind of classically described in a way that–
Lorrie: Oh, Sherlock is gorgeous, yeah, and Snape is everything you don’t want to be. Everything that grosses out schoolchildren.
Emma: Yeah, exactly.
Lorrie: So Sherlock, he is not different from other people, except that he does everything more quickly. When he shows you how he did it, you can understand everything. It just would’ve taken you much, much longer, and you might not have made the connections because his brain is so much faster and makes more connections. But everything can be explained. And Snape is not like that. Snape is different from other people. He knows how to read feelings. Every fact and every piece of evidence for Snape has to be run through his emotional filter before he understands what to do with it.
In other words, Snape knows human nature and Sherlock doesn’t. And it’s odd to think of it this way, because I don’t think of Snape as such a people person. But no, everything he strategizes depends upon his ability to empathize, which is not what people think of him. Certainly not the front he puts up.
Emma: So I should say at this point: listeners, you should read this book. If you’re listening right now and you’re thinking, “That doesn’t sound like Snape,” it’s because you need to read this book and learn more about what Lorrie’s written here. It’s a fascinating exploration of Snape and it really — I never was a huge Snape fan. I was like, “Yeah, yeah, you know, Snape, whatever,” despite being really, really into the Harry Potter series, and I think that your book really changed my perspective on that character. Even just rewatching the movies, there were moments that I sobbed my eyes out over Snape. My family’s looking at me like, “What the hell?” I’m like, “You don’t understand. He suffered so much.”
It’s not that you make him out to be– you don’t woobify Snape by any stretch of the imagination. It’s a really gritty, honest portrayal, but it really– I think one of the wonderful things about the book is the way that you sort of pick out all these little details that Harry, as the narrator, is missing, and then piece them together and say — and this is where it comes back to a sort of very Sherlockian thing is, “Look, if you just put all these little details together, the picture you get is completely different. It’s obvious.” It’s really kind of fun. So it’s almost like Sherlock wrote the book on Snape, which actually maybe brings us to our next question here. We’re talking about crossovers and things like that in this episode. So the BBC version of Sherlock is canonically about the same age as Harry Potter, correct?
Emma: Would they have been in the same year?
Lorrie: Yes, they were born in the same year. [Edit: I was wrong. BBC Sherlock was born in January 1981, Harry Potter in July 1980.]
Emma: Oh my god, that’s so great. So we can imagine a universe in which Sherlock got his Hogwarts letter, and showed up and got sorted into a house at the same time that Harry Potter did and attended classes. This makes me think: what would it have been like for Sherlock to sit in Snape’s Potions classes? And I just want to hear you talk about that.
Lorrie: I think the closest we see to my imagination of it is Snape’s attitude toward Hermione, where people think that Snape ought to be really pleased with her because she’s so good at following directions, and in fact when she does her absolute best in potions, he’s like, “Oh, that was adequate.” Because it’s not how well you can follow directions. That’s not potions magic. That’s just direction following.
What Snape thinks of as brilliant potioneering is when you have an instinct for what you should do to get the perfect desired result that’s going to make it better than your standard recipe. Harry is hopeless, because he’s not even following the basic directions, so he doesn’t have a strong foundation to improve upon them as Snape did when he was a student. Hermione — she doesn’t invent. She’s not an inventor.
And Sherlock, I think, would have had the same shortcomings as Harry and Hermione when Snape complains that you don’t have an instinct for what you should do to make this exactly magical. Sherlock, for one thing — he is somebody who sometimes skips steps, which… we know what Snape thinks of that. And we also know that that’s dangerous, but we see that in Sherlock in the series, that sometimes he goes, “Oh yeah, well, that wasn’t important,” and then that turns out to blow up in his face, which in potions is literal.
But you also have to know human nature to know what you want from a potion. I think that Sherlock would have sometimes skipped steps. I think he would have come into class cocky like, “Oh, I understand chemistry. I’m going to impress this teacher; he’s not as smart as I am.” And I think Snape would’ve put him in his place more than once and shown him how much he has to learn, and I don’t think he would’ve been the best potioneer and I think he would’ve been beaten by people who had more of an instinct, even if they weren’t as technically proficient.
Lorrie: And I think Sherlock would have learned to respect Snape and understand that this is something that he has to work on.
Emma: That’s interesting. So that was another question that I have for you is, what do you think the relationship between those two characters from a teacher-to-student perspective would have been like? So you think that Sherlock would have respected Snape? Do you think Snape would’ve just thought, “Oh, this is a cocky little kid who thinks he knows everything. I had his brother, and his brother was just as bad.”
Lorrie: Oh, I think his brother was a better potioneer.
Emma: Based on your explanation just now, I would say that sounds like a really reasonable conclusion.
Lorrie: I think Snape would’ve been pleased with Sherlock’s precision in an adequate way, like, “Oh, good. He’s good with precision.” Because by Snape’s standards, if you get everything 100% precise, then you get “adequate.” So he would’ve been happy with that, and I think he would’ve thought that Sherlock had to go grow up a bit before becoming — if he ever wanted to be — a great potioneer. I think, for example: Luna Lovegood, I imagine, would’ve been a really favorite student of Snape’s, because she would’ve had some imagination. He might have rolled his eyes at what she thought was important, but she would have known, “Okay, this is what you want from a potion.”
But you know what Snape would’ve said to Sherlock is, “You have no subtlety.” Sherlock is good with logic, but potions aren’t all logic. The other thing Sherlock would do that would make Snape crazy: he would test potions unethically and not know why Snape was yelling about some and thinking others were fine.
Emma: Oh, that’s interesting.
Lorrie: If Snape said, “No, you can’t do that to people!” “But you did this!” No, there’s a difference, and Sherlock wouldn’t know. Snape would’ve been so disgusted with the whole pill stunt in “A Study in Pink.”
Emma: Oh, yeah. That’s actually a really good point.
Lorrie: So disgusted. What a waste! What STUPID thing have you done now? Or what were you about to do? Can you imagine? Snape would’ve been shrieking with frustration at the whole wrong, “Yes, it was the sugar instead of the fog” in “Hounds.” Oh, he would’ve just been dying at Sherlock’s idiocy there. Any fool, any dunderhead could’ve been able to tell. He, I think, would’ve been extremely approving of when Sherlock does things like look at the mud on the sneakers or find out that it’s a chocolate factory. I think Snape would’ve loved that and actually praised him.
I think he would’ve been worse than disgusted about the whole beer thing on stag night. That is a perfect example of what makes a terrible potioneer. Sherlock’s there with all his calculations in body weight, completely not factoring in that John wants to get wasted, won’t tell him everything, doesn’t want to tell him when he’s going to go urinate. It’s just a massive, massive failure based on such a terrible premise that’s logic and not human nature, and also inexperience. That’s, to me, the worst of Sherlock in Potions.
I do think that Snape would have wildly approved of Sherlock getting himself high for cases.
Lorrie: The way that nobody believes that Sherlock’s in control when he’s doing that, and Sherlock keeps saying, “Chill, everyone. I’m not going to OD. I know what I’m doing,” and no one believes him. I think Snape would’ve believed him and been really pleased with him. The way that Sherlock has the painkillers on high when Janine is there and he just unsentimentally turns the thing off the moment Janine walks out. He is, in fact, completely in control because at that point he’s motivated the same way that Snape is motivated. He’s trying to protect people he loves, so that’s going to override whatever stupid, aimless curiosity he has to take poison pills or whatever.
He’s got the kind of purpose that Snape has for his entire second chance. When that happens, then he has grown up. He can now be considered a good potioneer. I think Snape, I think he would worship Wiggins and be like, “There! That is a proper potioneer!” And Sherlock knew to bring Wiggins along to do the potions, like, “Yep, that’s what you’re supposed to do.”
Emma: That’s really an interesting perspective on Wiggins. Wow… I like it. What about the other direction: What do you think Sherlock would have thought of Snape? That’s one of my big questions for you is, Would Sherlock have been able to deduce what Snape was really up to? Or is Snape just too good for Sherlock to have been able to do that?
Lorrie: That was a hard one at first. I thought, at first, maybe not, because Snape was able to fool smarter people than Sherlock. But then I realized no, Sherlock is exactly the kind of person who would’ve read Snape perfectly because he’s not weighing feelings, and feelings were how Snape fooled people. He fooled Voldemort by hiding his motives behind love so Voldemort could see nothing. But if you look at every single thing Snape ever did, and you line up the facts, you can always apply more than one interpretation and make everything fit. Almost everything.
The things that tell you what Snape is really doing are things that Voldemort wouldn’t notice, like when he says– during ‘The Flight of the Prince,’ when he and Harry are having a duel and Snape says, “No Unforgivables for you, Harry Potter; you don’t have what it takes.” But he’s basically preventing Harry from doing any Unforgivables and Voldemort wouldn’t have seen that protectiveness. But Sherlock would see everything, add them up. There’s slightly more on the column that says that Snape is against Voldemort and he would’ve seen it instantly because he is pure logic.
If you remember the potions puzzle at the end of Sorcerer’s Stone, when Snape sets out the seven potions bottles for Hermione and he writes this terrible poem so that she can figure out which potions to take, and Harry is completely panicked, and Hermione’s like, “Oh, no, no, this is easy,” and she smiles. And Harry’s like, “How can you be smiling?” And she gets it instantly, and she says, “Many wizards don’t have an ounce of logic. This isn’t magic; this is logic.” I think Hermione and Sherlock have some similarities there, that they have more logic than they have instinct.
So yeah, I think Sherlock would have deduced — he would have come up with it, and I think he also would’ve been able to see that Snape was hiding for a good reason, and I think this is one of those areas where he would’ve known to keep it to himself. Because as clueless as our Sherlock can be, he’s also a genius, and there are many, many times when he knows exactly what’s going on and keeps everything to himself and just says, “Oh, I see what game they’re playing, and I’m just going to keep my mouth shut.” And then years later, John is like, “WHAT?!” and Sherlock says, “Oh, clearly, this is what they were doing, blah blah blah blah.”
But the reason I think that Sherlock would’ve known it instantly is because Snape’s genius is limited by what J.K. Rowling was writing in order to give readers, for us to read. She laid out all of the clues so that it was 51% he’s on Dumbledore’s side, 49% on Voldemort’s. If we could’ve figured that out, then yeah, Sherlock would’ve seen that really cleanly, I think. Because he did some of the same things that Snape did. The way that Snape had to break the hearts of people like McGonagall when he had to — he worked for years alongside these terrific colleagues who trusted him and knew him day in day out, and then he had to make them think that they had never known him.
Sherlock had to do that to John. How could a doctor and a best friend live with someone so closely and not pick up on his suicidal feelings? Sherlock had to make people doubt themselves and their love, which was so awful, and it can’t last. That doubt cannot last because eventually you remember, “No, I know why I thought that of him. Okay, something’s wrong,” but the shock has to last long enough to let you get away. When Sherlock says to John, “Oh, Mrs. Hudson’s been attacked, but I don’t care. She’s just my landlady.” And John falls for that for 20 minutes, and it won’t last longer than 20 minutes, obviously. That’s just too wrong. But it lasts long enough for what Sherlock needs.
I think Snape, too, that there would have been people eventually who pieced things together, but the shock of having him kill Dumbledore was good enough to hold off those realizations for a while.
Emma: Wow. That’s really fascinating.
Lorrie: Oooh, I realized something really fun. About Legilimency and Occlumency: that’s another area where Snape would’ve thought that Sherlock was hopeless. Because, again, it’s about feelings. We have Mary going, “Fibbing, Sherlock.” Sherlock can’t shut her out. Sherlock is also a crap Legilimens because Irene– he just looks at her, and he sees nothing. All she has to do is just one little trick, and he’s just looking at her like, “I don’t get it.” That’s not something that would happen to Snape. And Mary obviously fooled Sherlock as well. The character arc of Sherlock as having to understand empathy and grow there, Snape would’ve identified that on his report card a really long time ago, saying, “This is a brilliant person, but he can’t be a great wizard until he gets this.”
You had a question: What magical subjects would Sherlock have been good at? And I thought, okay, well, obviously, Arithmancy and Astronomy, and anything that depends on precision and observation and logic. And then I realized, “Oh my god. I know what his specialty would’ve been: Muggle Studies, because of the line that Mycroft says to John in “A Scandal in Belgravia”: “My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?”
So we have this genius who doesn’t like humans, and he’s made his life’s work about understanding humans, and he doesn’t know human nature, but that’s all he does. It’s a good challenge to him. It’s an interesting and a worthwhile challenge. He can understand that he is somewhat like them and also not, and basically our canon BBC Sherlock thinks of everyone else but him and Mycroft as Muggles. “What’s it like in your funny little brains?” And that’s who he labors for.
Emma: It’s interesting because I think that my naive perspective would’ve been, “Oh, he’d be great at Potions because of the chemistry thing,” but you’ve completely changed my mind.
Lorrie: Well, yeah, he’s good at Muggle Potions, but not at magical ones, because magical ones are about feelings.
Emma: That’s a really interesting point that I don’t think I’ve heard brought up in any discussion of Potterlock before, that magic relies more on feelings than it does on any kind of scientific precision. That’s one of the big themes of the books, and I don’t think it ever occurred to me before that that’s something Sherlock would really struggle with.
Lorrie: He wouldn’t know how to measure it, and in Potions you have to measure. But when Snape says, “Time and space matter in magic,” Sherlock would be like, “Yes, but how much?” And Snape would just be like, “UUUGGGGHHH… two feet of parchment on that, Mr. Holmes. I’m going away.”
Emma: Well, this has been fascinating. I feel like I’ve learned a lot about Sherlock just from comparing him to Snape. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about this.
Lorrie: Thank you for having me on to talk about these two characters that have kept my interest for a really long time.
Emma: If any of our listeners want to get a copy of your book, where can they find it?
Lorrie: It’s on Amazon, it’s called Snape: A Definitive Reading, and I’m Lorrie Kim. I’m at lorriekim.com, if you want to see any of the author website press stuff.
Emma: Cool. We’ll put links to those in the show notes, so people can go looking for it.
******END OF INTERVIEW (00:23:05)******
In November 2016, Snapecast included an interview with Lorrie Kim in their Episode 43: Remembrance and Reunion. Deannah Robinson firstname.lastname@example.org provided the transcript of the interview below.
*****START OF INTERVIEW***** (00:50:18)
Shannon: Hi everyone! This is Shannon, and I’m here with a special guest for the fan interview segment. With me is Lorrie Kim, who’s recently published a book, Snape: A Definitive Reading, that follows Snape across the seven Harry Potter books. Lorrie, thanks for joining me.
Lorrie: Thank you for having me.
Shannon: So I take it you’re a very big Snape fan.
Lorrie: He’s my love in the Potterverse. He’s, I think, my favorite fictional character ever, probably.
Shannon: Well, that’s perfect because I think Snapecast listeners feel the same way, and I was really thrilled to see this book because it’s an interesting perspective that’s looking at Snape across the books. It’s almost like, finally, the Harry filter is removed, and let’s see what’s going on here. Why did you write a book all about Snape?
Lorrie: One answer is that I always read the series wishing that it was Severus Snape and the Sorcerer’s Stone, Severus Snape and the Chamber of Secrets, all the way through. That was a story that compelled me, so this was a chance to do that. The practical answer to that is that I was approached by Diane Tarbuck from Story Spring Publishing, a publishing company that was started by a bunch of Snape fans.
Shannon: Excellent! Your book is a reading of Snape across the seven Harry Potter texts, and it incorporates quotes and other fans’ and writers’ interpretations of different parts of Snape’s behavior or character to try and get at, for example, what may his motivations have been in certain scenes, or what he could’ve been experiencing while we’re following Harry’s perspective in the actual books. What aspects of Snape’s story or behavior were the most difficult for you to understand and explain?
Lorrie: One of the aspects that was the hardest for me to figure out was why he has this bizarre unfounded conviction that Harry Potter loves being notorious. Starting from the first day of Potions class, when he assumes that Harry loves being a celebrity and sets out to take Harry down a peg, and the other Slytherins are snickering like they’ve already talked about this. Meanwhile, poor Harry just wants to blend in, and this accusation from Snape toward Harry recurs. Any time he’s extra annoyed with Harry, he starts saying, “Oh, you think you’re so famous and you think that gives you such privileges.” Where is this coming from? Is he envious? Eh, that wasn’t quite it. Finally, it was my own experience being a real jerk to somebody — completely unconnected, just in my real life — to the point that whenever I thought about them or saw them, I was really stricken by guilt and self-blame. If I had to see that person more frequently, I think I would be happy to ascribe some negative traits just to relieve the unbearable guilt I had. Probably it sounds unconvincing for me to say, “Oh, it was out of guilt,” but when I looked carefully through the books, it has to do with Snape projecting onto Harry a lot of the stuff that was actually true about James, combined with some stuff from Harry. Like when he says in the third book to Harry, “Oh, you’re just like your father who was strutting around,” and Harry says, “My father didn’t strut and neither do I,” and this was less than a week after his Firebolt came and he strutted around the Great Hall with all these Gryffindors. Yeah, you almost don’t, Harry, almost don’t. But surely enough to remind Snape of something that he was already sensitive to.
Shannon: This is a good point, because I think — one of the things I found really compelling reading your book was going back and forth not only to quotes from the text, but also connecting to foreshadowing. Those of us, it makes sense to read the definitive reading of Snape after we’ve read the Harry Potter books and are a bit familiar with them. But there are a lot of details that are easy to forget, that something was said and maybe for some of us we zero in on certain parts of the text and they stay with us, and others of us will zero in on others and we’ll forget things. There will be some oversight about, “Oh yeah, that did happen.” Like when you were mentioning the Firebolt just now, I was thinking, “Yeah, I have this picture of Harry in my head as being really humble and kind of irritated by attention and shy, but also self conscious in many ways. But yeah, he has happy moments, and what does that look like to an outsider when you get this brand new most awesome thing?” So I enjoyed your interweaving of quotes, but also you drew upon material from interviews or things that you had come across that other analysts had provided as a way to unpack some of the nuance of the text. I found that particularly compelling. It was like building a case bit by bit, pieces of evidence. Another thing that you did — this stuck in my head — when you were exploring how Snape learned how to fly, where that came from. And I know that’s obviously a point of debate that Snape fans have unpacked in their own analysis or in their fanfiction, for example. But one of the things that you drew upon was Rowling and her mother, and her mother’s last name. So interviews with Rowling or knowledge of things that Rowling has said even offhand about her own family were also fodder for your interpretation. Do you have another example of something that was difficult to understand and explain?
Lorrie: Something that — the difficulty was in explaining it because I really wanted to get this point across. I feel strongly that Snape was not doing it all for Lily. I think that is true up until the point he killed Dumbledore, after which he did it for his own beliefs. By that time he went on taking this cause on for himself. We see that struggle when he has that conversation with Dumbledore where he casts the Patronus. As far as I’m concerned, that’s the last time he’s doing it only for Lily because by taking on the assignment to kill Dumbledore and then reintegrate his soul by feeling remorse so that he can go on to live until he can deliver the message to Harry, he has to really face himself and he can’t pull together his soul unless he truly feels remorse for everything. He can’t be doing that just for Lily and then begrudgingly hold out against Harry that way. He has to see that whether or not he personally likes Harry that there is such a thing as right and wrong, and that he’s going to do what he thinks is right. At that point, it has nothing to do with any image of a really long dead friend.
Shannon: So, you were concerned about getting this point across clearly because it has been kind of divisive among some Snape fans. I think even in our own Snapecast crew, some of us were kind of struggling with the idea that this is all for love. What?
Lorrie: For one thing, you know, when people say, “Well, that’s really creepy. He’s doing this all for a dead woman,” I don’t think Snape has any illusions about Lily being completely dead. If anyone knows that she’s dead and gone, it’s Snape. He doesn’t have any thoughts like, “Oh, in the afterlife she’ll forgive me,” nothing like that. It’s that he was full of despair after she died because of him and wanted to kill himself and Dumbledore said, “No. Keep going. See what you can do with the rest of your life.” And Snape did that with absolutely no personal reward. The thing I wanted to argue against was the notion that Snape was only in it for himself, and I’m not really sure where anyone can get that interpretation because he got nothing out of the second half of his life struggling and getting no credit and having to put up with a lot of life-threatening misery. He lived and died expecting that he wouldn’t get any credit for the kind of work he did, having people hate him, having people hate him for correct reasons and also for lies that they were putting out there that were the opposite of his true feelings. He didn’t get anything out of it. If he’d gotten what he wanted out of the deal, he would’ve just been dead and resting from when he was a young adult.
Shannon: This is a good point that does stand out in the later chapters of your book when you’re looking at how much he’s concealing, especially when he has to carry out the ruse, of course, being Voldemort’s hand after killing Dumbledore. But just how much lack of credit he’s getting and how much he has to play along with the negative view that his colleagues who had become friends at some point, you can see that maybe in his young adulthood he had some solace in developing collegial relationships with McGonagall. They were a good team; this is something that does stand out, I would say. A lot of people can see that. He has to sacrifice friendship, he has to sacrifice his good name, and he’s lost Dumbledore, right? The one who knew. So it is a very lonely existence that he’s facing. Removing the Harry filter and looking at what Snape may have been experiencing, I felt very exhausted for him, beyond what I had the first time I read the books. Because now it foregrounded Snape in exactly what he may have been experiencing in the moments Harry was running off risking his life and maybe just about doing something so stupid that would throw it all away or Dumbledore was making certain decisions that were really ill-advised. Very stressful.
Lorrie: Yeah, and there can only be so much blame on Harry or Dumbledore, either, because everybody’s mistakes were so understandable and so human.
Shannon: Yes. It deepened my appreciation for what Snape chose to do with his life even more than I’d already had as a deeply devoted Snape fan who has an oversized appreciation for him relative to the other characters in the book. But I wanted to ask, then: Did writing this book change your understanding or appreciation of Snape in some way? Or did you find while you were writing and trying to explain certain moments that you had revelations that you hadn’t realized before?
Lorrie: Yeah, there were two. The first one happened in Prisoner of Azkaban. I didn’t realize until this time what Snape thought was happening all year. There were clues, but when I looked only at what Snape knew, what evidence he saw and what he didn’t see — for example, all the times that he was knocked out in the Shrieking Shack and Lupin and Sirius were filling in backstory and he never heard it — I realized all year long, he thought that the prank they pulled on him when he was a 5th year was exactly what Lupin and Sirius were trying to do again.
Shannon: Okay. That’s terrifying.
Lorrie: It’s ghastly. Here’s the thing that made me feel the most horrified: when he walks in on Lupin and Harry talking alone in Lupin’s office becoming friends, he thinks Lupin is grooming Harry. He thinks Lupin is trying to gain Harry’s trust, playing on Harry’s trait of wanting adventure so that if he gives the Marauders’ Map to Harry — because at this point that’s what Snape thinks — Snape says to Lupin, “Don’t you think Harry got the Marauders’ Map directly from the manufacturers?” So he thinks that Lupin is getting Harry’s trust, giving him the map, and then he and Sirius have a plan to lure Harry outside of Hogwarts, past the Dementors, so that Lupin can transform into a werewolf and kill Harry.
Shannon: And meanwhile, he’s not getting any support from Dumbledore on this because Dumbledore is like, “Leave it, Severus. I trust Lupin.” So he’s completely in it on his own, dealing with his own past trauma and a headmaster who won’t let him talk about it and also won’t really acknowledge that it’s a risk, and he thinks the exact same thing is happening.
Lorrie: Yes, that’s what he thinks is happening and for one thing he’s wrong about a whole lot of it, almost all of it.
Shannon: As we see.
Lorrie: Yes, and Dumbledore is wrong about more of it than a lot of people notice in their readings because so much of what Dumbledore is feeling and saying comes from such a good place it can be easy to miss points where he was wrong. Lupin has so many good intentions that it’s easy to gloss over the parts where Lupin really shouldn’t have done some things because Lupin is not trustworthy. But it’s for completely different reasons, not what Snape is thinking. But you can tell, even Harry can tell, that Lupin is hiding something, and for Snape to see, “Oh, Lupin’s hiding something,” of course his mind is going to go to Lupin and Sirius being partners in malice they way they were when he was a student because Snape doesn’t realize, he doesn’t know, that Lupin was not in on the plan to kill him as a student. Snape thought that James, Lupin, and Sirius, all together, thought it was a grand idea. He doesn’t realize that it was only Sirius’s idea.
Shannon: What stood out for me: this seemed like Snape’s really horrible, very bad year re-traumatizing him because I keep thinking, did he ever receive support for what he experienced? He had a near-death experience at the hands of peers, and then wasn’t allowed to talk about it. Now he thinks it’s going to happen again, and he’s still not allowed to talk about it, and he’s still worried it’s going to happen because he’s experienced it. So he’s got his own past trauma which is obviously motivating and blinding him, but no one else to turn to because he’s given his word. And then… I don’t know, it’s maddening to read it this way. It’s really difficult. Really difficult. I love Prisoner of Azkaban, but reading this I was thinking, “Wow, this was a really — if you went through some kind of trauma, and then you think it’s going to happen again to someone else and then no one will listen to you?”
Lorrie: Yeah, and it’s a kid. Yeah. It’s a kid, and you’re a teacher. It’s your job and you’re trying to give this kid what you wanted and didn’t get at his age, and the kid is not thanking you. The kid thinks you’re the enemy. What I see happening based on very tiny traces is that that conversation did take place between Dumbledore and Snape off the page the morning after the Shrieking Shack incident in Prisoner of Azkaban, right before Snape tell the Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf. Because we see Snape doing that, and he never gets into trouble for it. Lupin gets into trouble. Dumbledore is furious with Lupin.
Shannon: Lupin gets sacked.
Lorrie: Well, yeah, he is allowed to resign and he is running away from Hogwarts as fast as he can. And when Dumbledore comes to say goodbye to him, there’s a part that says Harry had the impression that Lupin was trying to get away as fast as he could and Dumbledore shakes hands with Lupin and says soberly, “Goodbye Remus” or something. It’s really like, “I’m disappointed in you.” Then after that, Lupin, he complains about it, but Dumbledore can’t hire him to work at the school after that. He has to send him out to be a spy with the werewolves, which is not anybody’s idea of first choice for job. But it’s finally apparent to everybody that you cannot rely on human beings to be completely flawless. You can’t ask Lupin, “Never, ever transform unsafely.” You can’t. It’s beyond his capability. It’s beyond anybody’s to control that. It was a case of Dumbledore not respecting how difficult of an illness lycanthropy is, thinking that willpower alone could do it.
Shannon: So what was the second episode?
Lorrie: “The Flight of the Prince,” when Snape says, “Don’t call me ‘coward’,” and I could not figure out what was going on there for years. It’s so anti-climactic; he’s screaming, but we’ve never heard the word ‘coward’ foreshadowed. I thought, Well, I guess there were bullies who called him ‘coward’ in the past, and it’s a sensitive spot for him and he doesn’t like that word. It comes out of the blue. Does he have issues with being called a coward? Well, what he just did was really, really brave and nobody knows it. Meanwhile, tiny little Harry, who doesn’t even know how to cast some essential spells, brandishing his tiny stick and saying, “Come back and fight me, you coward!” As we saw in that confrontation, Snape overpowers Harry several times over. Snape doesn’t even have to wave a wand or say anything to block Harry’s most enraged attacks. It’s nothing to Snape. If Snape is not standing and fighting, it’s not cowardice.
So I looked at it and the first clue came from Hilary Justice, who did a beautiful reading of that where she shows that that’s a really long paragraph where Snape screams, “Don’t.” And then there’s a long narration about the torment on his face and about the howls of Fang, who is trapped inside Hagrid’s hut that a Death Eater has set fire to and Fang can’t get out. And she’s comparing the torment on Snape’s face to the way that Fang sounds trapped inside a burning hut. After that long description, then we hear, “Call me ‘coward’.” So I thought, Okay, we’re paying attention to how Fang feels, comparing it to the things that Snape can’t say. This time around was when I realized that all of book six is leading up to the difference between how you feel when somebody that you fought against dies versus when they survive. If they come out of it okay, you can claim some relief in yourself and be like, “Okay, well, that was a really lucky break this time. I can do better. I’ll never do that again.” And we see that with Sectumsempra, when Harry thinks about what could have happened, he just turns cold. And we see that was Slughorn feeling very responsible for Voldemort becoming this mass terrorist when he wasn’t the one who decided that Voldemort should do that. But because so many people had died and so much damage had been done, Slughorn was really eaten alive by the guilt. Then we see Ron almost dying from the poisoned mead, and then we see what happens when you didn’t even mean it, but it turns out in death. The way that Lupin blames himself for James and Lily dying, the way that Sirius blamed himself. Snape, he didn’t physically kill James and Lily, just the way that Dumbledore later on says he didn’t strike the actual blow that killed Ariana, he thinks, and he doesn’t want to find out. But when somebody dies, it tears your soul apart. Your guilt about it, it rewrites your right to how you felt before then. We see Snape desperately trying to tell people, “Well, you don’t understand: James and his friends were really shitty to me. They were really shitty.” Trying to protest like, “I had the right to dislike them and be angry at them, even though I didn’t kill them. They’re not saints just because they died.” But you can’t ever really own those feelings again if death happened. It’s just overpowering. We see even after Sectumsempra, Snape makes Harry rewrite all of those detentions for James and Sirius, like, “They were not saints. They were not saints. They were not saints.” But Snape never intended for them to die. He didn’t want that, but he had wished it in a fantasy way so hard and he was trying to tell the world, himself, somebody, “No, I didn’t mean that they should really die!”
So Harry that night — that’s a really long night for Harry, because you recall that he learned that night from Sybill Trelawney, who was drunk in the Room of Requirement, that it was Snape who overheard the prophecy. He never knew that before. Dumbledore and Snape had spent his entire school years trying to keep that information from Harry, and he finally has learned it. And that was just a couple hours before the Flight of the Prince confrontation, and then so much happened after he learned that that we, the reader, we forget that he’s only just learned it. And Snape doesn’t know that until that fight when Harry is wandless and he yells at Snape, “Kill me like you killed him, then.” It’s deliberately written so that “like you killed him,” it’s not named. Harry means James, but they both know that Snape has just killed Dumbledore, too. Until then, Snape could always say to himself, “I wasn’t really a murderer. I’m responsible and I’m never going to get over the guilt, but I didn’t actually kill anyone.” But now he has. Avada Kadavra cannot work unless you mean it, so he has just become a person who is a murderer, and he feels terrible about it. So when Harry says, “Kill me like you killed him,” Snape wants to say, “Don’t call me a murderer,” but he can’t say that ever again. So he says, “Don’t.” And then there’s a long silence, and what can you say? So he says, “Don’t call me ‘coward’.”
Shannon: Why can’t he say ‘murderer’?
Lorrie: I don’t think he wants to be called a murderer because what he did with Dumbledore was so much braver and more complicated and more awful than that, and his true self doesn’t want to be a murderer. The false self, the self that’s meant to be a decoy for Voldemort to believe in, would love to be a murderer, but the true self that’s Snape — it’s all abhorrent to him, and he’s at his absolute limit. Never mind that he killed Dumbledore; he’s just lost his only friend.
Shannon: And confidant.
Lorrie: And he has a really long night ahead of him. He hasn’t gotten Draco back home yet, even. Meanwhile, he’s going to have to intercede on Draco’s behalf to try to take away as much of Voldemort’s punishment as possible because of course Voldemort is going to enjoy punishing Draco for failing.
Lorrie: So his night has just barely begun, and he just killed someone.
Shannon: So ‘coward’ was a replacement for ‘murderer’.
Lorrie: I think so.
Shannon: Interesting. Yeah.
Lorrie: Because the word ‘coward’ in itself, it didn’t have the resonance that I was looking for.
Shannon: Right, right. It’s a really good point you make. This is not like Back to the Future, where we find out that ‘coward’ was kind of a trigger word for setting things in motion.
Lorrie: Nope. We only ever see it again when McGonagall calls him that.
Shannon: You know what’s interesting, though? McGonagall, head of Gryffindor; Harry Potter, Gryffindor. ‘Coward’ seems to be a Gryffindor insult. So whether it’s true or not, it’s almost like it’s the ultimate insult a Gryffindor can hurl at you: you’ve failed. And Snape hasn’t failed. It’s just Harry doesn’t know this at all.
Lorrie: Right, and then at the end, we get the reversal where Harry recognizes that.
Shannon: In tribute, the bravest man, probably the bravest man he ever knew, yes. So your book was published early this summer, and the new Harry Potter play, Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, came out this July. Did you find that the 8th Harry Potter story, in a sense, altered your reading or reinforced your reading of Snape in some way, and can you give an example?
Lorrie: I had one of those fan moments of “I told you so” when I read Snape as he appeared in Cursed Child, and it was a lot less subtle than I was expecting, because something that Rowling does in writing Snape in the first 7 books is she always keeps everything he does or says to at least two different interpretations or motives. Whenever he does something completely noble, there’s always also pettiness or vengeance or small-mindedness, either that you can interpret it either way, or just to remind us no matter how great of a human he ever became, he was essentially not a very nice person. Partly to show that it was harder for him. There are people who are naturally good. This is not one of those cases. Not that he was naturally evil, but just kind of a jerk at heart. And many of us are jerks at heart, and it is not easy to be good if that’s not the way that you’re wired. Every time we see Rowling show something beautiful or noble about Snape, she always put in a reminder that this is not a suddenly redeemed and angelic character. I thought that balance was going to be retained in Cursed Child, and it wasn’t. That surprised me. It seemed to me almost like a corrective. The thing that it reminded me of was how in Goblet of Fire, Rowling wrote into the dialogue an explanation of how to pronounce “Hermione.” That it was not a case where she was happy for people to just bring to it whatever they wanted — that she wanted to say, No, there is an authoritative take on this. I felt like there was a little bit of that authorial voice coming in here like, “No, he really did do it at the end for his own beliefs because he believed in the cause, not because of the memory of Lily.” Because as we know from Twitter and from interviews, Rowling has been following the endless debate about Snape’s character, as though her canon weren’t closed, and I think she felt it was important enough so that when Jack Thorne wrote this way, that was something she could give her approval to.
Shannon: Good. So there were no things that surprised you other than that?
Lorrie: There were delightful surprises, things that made me laugh in happiness. He was funny.
Shannon: He’s always been funny.
Lorrie: Almost always. He’s never funny in book 7. That was another thing that I discovered in this read-through that I had not noticed before. Because I had assumed that he’s always funny in some horrible way that — if you agree it’s funny, and not everyone does — if his horrible insults make you laugh, then you’re like, “well, that’s probably not very nice of me.” But in book 7, his humor is gone.
Shannon: He’s also not a teacher in book 7.
Lorrie: Right. He’s not a teacher, but there’s nobody around to appreciate his humor. He used to joke to McGonagall, he used to joke to his Slytherins, he used to joke with Dumbledore.
Shannon: He had friends. He had students he was overseeing. He had more people in his life. He could be more.
Lorrie: Meanwhile, in book 7, all he’s worried about is trying to keep his Slytherins from becoming monsters, trying to prevent students from killing each other, trying not to lose anybody. He has no humor left in book 7.
Shannon: You know that saying, “It’s lonely at the top”? That when you achieve a position of great leadership and responsibility, you can’t really be who you were before. And here he is now as not only headmaster but also right-hand man for Voldemort. So he’s really at the top in a very visible way. He’s very isolated, and he can’t be funny. He can’t show these other sides to himself. That’s kind of sad. I like when he’s not serious, I like when he’s a bit biting. I appreciate a bit of nonsense.
Lorrie: We get a lot of that back in Cursed Child.
Shannon: Yeah. This is a lot of food for thought. Thank you so much for joining us, Lorrie, and I can’t help but recommend this book. I mean, for Snape fans out there who are looking for a close reading of the Harry Potter series but with a focus on Snape, I think this is a wonderful book. It’s reawakened my love for him, so thank you very much for writing it and thank you for joining us on Snapecast.
Lorrie: Thank you for having me. Obviously I love talking about this character, and I think he really deserved a book-length examination because what Rowling did by inventing him still impresses me.
Shannon: He did, he did. Thank you so much.
*****END OF INTERVIEW***** (01:20:26)
In September 2016, Book Jawn Podcast released an interview with Lorrie Kim about Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. You can download and listen to the podcast and you can now also read the transcript, courtesy of whiz transcriber Deannah Robinson. Contact her at email@example.com if you need anything transcribed!
Sawyer: Hello! And welcome to Book Jawn Podcast, Episode 36.
Grace: Thirty… five. Oh, 36! Nice!
Sawyer: Yeah. Look at who knows how to count!
Grace: I hate you! Stop… I hate you! I don’t know…
Sawyer: I know, and that’s way more than my fingers and toes, as well. No one is more surprised than me.
Grace: We’re super excited— Oh, I’m Grace.
Sawyer: I’m Sawyer.
Grace: And we’re here with…
Grace: And so many of you guys were so excited about our episode with Lorrie and her book, Snape: A Definitive Reading, that we asked her to come back for our Cursed Child discussion. **** We’re that far in Cursed Child? We’re in an interesting situation here, because all three of us liked Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, and I know that many people didn’t. But we’re going to have a talk, we’re going to talk about it.
Sawyer: Yeah. Agreed.
Grace: So, I wanted to just start with saying we haven’t obviously had a new Harry Potter text in our hands for a long time, and how did you guys feel? Where did you get your book? How quickly did you read it?
Sawyer: Well, I borrowed it from Spiral, and then took it back because they were in such high demand that I was like, “Well, I’ll let somebody buy this at full price.”
Grace: Yeah, she was asking people to bring back the book. She asked JD, too. She’s like, “Can I sell your copy? You’re just getting one later.”
Sawyer: That’s hilarious. I did not know that. But yeah. And then I just bought it from the Marble later.
Grace: How did it feel though?
Sawyer: It felt great. I read it very quickly and I squeed throughout it. I was like, “I’M SO HAPPY TO HAVE A NEW HARRY POTTER!” Then I thought it was going to take me a while to read, because it’s not written in book format. It’s written as a play, and it did not take anything from the story for me. I was actually really surprised that my wife wasn’t like–she still hasn’t read it, so I was very surprised, but I think she was a little put off by the format. But I liked it, yeah. What about you guys?
Grace: Well, I got mine at GeekyCon. We had a midnight release after the ball that we have. The line was really long. It just felt long. Anyway. First of all, I did get the book in line, but it was really a perfect setup because I’d spent the whole ball talking to the number one famous Slytherin/Snape defender at GeekyCon. We had finally talked to each other for the first time at this ball, and we were so excited. We’re hugging each other, being like, “I feel so validated by the things you’re saying.” And then we both got Cursed Child, and it was very affirming to our feelings about Gryffindor bias and Scorpius is a perfect little cinnamon roll precious boy.
Sawyer: He is precious.
Grace: So I got the book, and I didn’t start reading it immediately, though. I didn’t actually start it until a week after the release date, and I read it in one sitting and cried on the train. I mean, I liked it, but I feel like it was affirming to my specific Slytherin feels. I got a very personal attachment to it. Lorrie?
Lorrie: I got mine at Big Blue Marble because it was released at the same time that Big Blue Marble was hosting the release party for Snape, so I did my presentation, then I stood in line here. And I was prepared because so many people I knew were very negative about this script coming out, for different reasons. A lot of them were because they had done so much creative work as fans within the Potterverse, and they had bad experiences in the past of their headcanons not working out with new canon. And I really have a problem with this, even though I should be more open-minded. But a lot of people are like, “J.K. Rowling should just never say another word.”
Grace: Yeah, a lot of people feel like that. Like, how huge mega Harry Potter fans feel–
Lorrie: That she doesn’t have the right to say anything, that she has made the universe and she should just now walk away and it belongs to her readers.
Grace: This is like, I would say, most people, at least superfans I’ve talked to, feel this way.
Lorrie: I feel very strongly about it, and I have such a problem with that, to the extent that I don’t think I understand how seriously people feel this or how important it is. Because when they say it, they’re so vehement, and I disagree so much, I don’t think I’m listening to them. But I disagree because I think that she has the right to do whatever she wants, and if it bothers you, if her authority is too threatening, just don’t read it. But that’s much more easily said than done.
Grace: People’s fanfictions or headcanons, those still exist. They can still hold on to those and there’s new content, but the thing you wrote still is great. The thing you wrote still has readers.
Lorrie: A lot of people say it’s because they’ve been transforming aspects of Potterverse to be more inclusive or more representative of things that are important to them, and every time Rowling comes out with new content, it reminds people that actually, in most ways, Potterverse is not all that progressive. For example, people who had invented a lot of lesbian backstory for McGonagall, and then Rowling came out on Pottermore with an extremely heteronormative— the same story for McGonagall that she has for a lot of the other teachers, which is romance that went wrong at a certain point and then celibacy afterward. People thought, well, after the potential richness of McGonagall as a figure of female education– which historically has been really embedded with lesbian history, with female empowerment–to have this felt reductive. And I’ve seen people be really angry about that, because it wasn’t just that their headcanons had been invalidated, but in a way that was upsetting in the first place. One of the things I was doing when I was reading this was to see where Rowling’s authorizations were moving on some issues, like people were saying the racial tokenism, for example, or the queerness or anti-Slytherin bias, how much feedback is she incorporating? How much is she acknowledging? How much is, “You know what? It’s my universe”? And then balancing that, of course, against the fact that she didn’t write it. That’s something that is, I think, universally difficult for a lot of readers to remember: “Okay, she has authorized, but she didn’t write.” The syntax isn’t hers, the characterizations. And that’s been a problem for people during interpretation as they read this is, “Okay, I am not comfortable with this characterization of this person. Is that because it’s poorly written? Is it because I’m looking for J.K.R.’s writing and it’s not hers? Or is it because I’m not getting something?” And there have been times when I’ve concluded, “No, it’s because it’s really subtle and intentionally written to be surprising and difficult to get on first reading,” and I wish sometimes that people wouldn’t be so quick to conclude that it was poor writing because it’s not always.
Sawyer: Yeah. I get that.
Grace: A lot of the most— I’m just going to compliment you here rightfully, but a lot of your analyses are about these kind of unsaid things or subtle things in the series or the things you find re-reading. That makes total sense.
Sawyer: Well, you remember when the 7th book came out, how everybody was so upset about the epilogue.
Grace: Oh, we remember.
Sawyer: And that’s one of my favorite pieces of the original series. I think it’s so beautifully written and so — there’s so much. It’s a thing that when I first read it, I was like, ‘What in gay hell is this?’ And then I re-read it a couple of times, and was like, ‘oh no, actually, this is really brilliant.’
Grace: That makes sense.
Sawyer: I think that it is— I think you’re right. A lot of stuff does gets richer when you re-read it, and see how nuanced and how many layers there are. I totally get what you mean, though. As to the people being like, ‘J.K. Rowling can’t write Harry Potter anymore,’ I think that’s garbage.
Grace: Hot Take: You’re garbage.
Sawyer: I don’t think people are garbage. I think that’s a garbage opinion. I feel like it’s a world that she created, of course she has authority on it. But I think that even JKR at this point must realize that it is a world that her readers have taken a lot of ownership and liberties with, and that’s fine. That creates space in that fandom for all sorts of different voices. I think that she—I don’t know a lot about Pottermore. I know there’s been a thing of the American houses and appropriation. I don’t know a lot about that, but I also don’t know that Pottermore is written by JKR.
Lorrie: The parts that she wrote are noted. If it doesn’t say that it’s from her, then somebody else did the writing.
Grace: But the Native American appropriation was her?
Lorrie: No. [CORRECTION! The Pottermore writing about the Ilvermorny houses WAS definitely by Rowling! I was incorrect when I said otherwise during the recorded interview. -LK]
Grace: No? Really?
Lorrie: I don’t know who did the writing and I don’t know how much authorization she gave, but it’s not one of the elements that says New Writing from J.K. Rowling. [Dear Lorrie: Yes, it is! It definitely says New Writing from J.K. Rowling! You were wrong, wrong, wrong! – Lorrie.]
Sawyer: I can’t imagine anybody is here to step up and claim that.
Grace: Yeah. Huh. I think my opinion on this is that— well, I think that obviously it’s her writing, and I look forward to new content. I want that. I love reading new things that she’s written because I love Harry Potter and I want all the things, I want more all the time. I do think that the series or the story is so important to so many people. The three of us in this room, it has influenced our lives in huge, sweeping ways.
Grace: So I think that for anyone who feels that way, you’re protective over this thing that’s influenced your daily life so much. But I don’t agree with saying, “Well, then I don’t want anything else. This is what it is.”
Lorrie: Well, I like that you went to the epilogue, because obviously it springboards off the epilogue. I remember reading the epilogue and I was not that impressed with it for reasons that this play confronts head on. For one thing, it was very heavily that heteronormative “OMG they’re all going to marry their high school sweethearts and have children.”
Sawyer: All except for Draco.
Lorrie: Which, thank goodness. And Draco not is also a beautiful thing. It means that he was free to continue to have romance from somebody who shared his same background, that hadn’t been making the same mistakes that he made as a teenager. He was allowed to go on and have a second act.
Sawyer: Look, in my heart, he ended up with Neville.
Grace: That’s her OTP, Draco/Neville. I just want to know who Neville— what’s he up to? Just call me!
Lorrie: The single thing that I hated most about the epilogue was the really unhealthy dynamic between Hermione and Ron, where he’s basically gaslighting her, where he says, “Hermione, I bet you thought that I couldn’t pass the driving test without Confunding the Muggle examiner,” and Hermione says, “No, I had perfect faith in you.” And then he whispers to Harry, “No, actually I did.” So he’s angry at her for not having faith in him, but—
Sawyer: But her lack of faith would have been justified.
Lorrie: That really, really got my stomach hurting, because that’s the same dynamic that I don’t like about Molly and Arthur, where they’re not honest with each other and they blame each other and they work around each other in a way that I don’t think is good. So Cursed Child starts, and it’s made so much better for me, because it’s out in the open that this is the dynamic, which is fine with me because it’s like, “Okay yes, these are our flaws, which we openly acknowledge,” and Rose is there going, “Well, I have every confidence that he did Confund the examiner.” It’s out in the open, it’s not me worrying that Hermione is trying to cover up for Ron’s lack of confidence, what kind of marriage dynamic is that? It was much more accepting to me of these people and more realistic. And then of course the child, who is nearly an adult, has something to say about it, which, to me, shows that the epilogue is a promise, and then that scene in Cursed Child is a reality. Of course, when we’ve just seen these kids fight Death Eaters, it’s hard to know in the future what’s it going to be like when they’re married and they have kids. And here, okay no, this— It’s real life. Their kids have opinions. I found immediately within the first couple acts that it reconciled me more to the epilogue.
Grace: So I wanna move on to the series — you said — oh, the complete Harry Potter series and then Cursed Child is the second part, but it is canon. But there are so many readers saying, “No, this isn’t canon, this isn’t canon.” But it is officially canon. Do you guys each consider it to be? Do you think that the way the characters are written is true to their character?
Sawyer: You know, that’s an interesting question. I think— yes, I think that the characters are believable for who they could’ve grown up to be. That said, I don’t care that much. It’s not going to take away from fanfiction for me. I’m still going to read fanfiction, and I’m fine with that. If it doesn’t follow through with Cursed Child, I get it. I get that there is a lot of inclusivity that is absent, and so I get that as being a valid qualm. So yeah, it’s canon, but I have a big shrug about it.
Lorrie: To me, it’s absolutely canon, but that is based on my reading of it, which I know not everyone will share. For two reasons: the first one is, it’s about that phrase, “All was well,” that was at the ending of the epilogue, which I know made a lot of people really nuts. Because they said, “How can you say all was well? It’s clear in the epilogue that it’s still a prejudiced society, the same tensions and the same unfairness that were always there continue. The only thing that was well was that Harry’s scar doesn’t hurt anymore, but nothing else has been improved.” Which made me think, Okay, for the purposes of the Harry Potter story, ‘All was well’ means there was a baby who was almost killed by a serial murderer, and he was really badly traumatized and it led to war and he was hunted for his entire childhood. What can we do? Is it possible for everybody involved in the circumstances around his traumatic childhood to get this child to adulthood, to a point that he has roughly the same chances at life that his peers can expect, roughly? They did get him to that. He came of age, he was a grownup, he was allowed–because of Dumbledore and Snape’s sacrifices–to go on to have a family of his choice. To live without his scar trauma impeding everything and controlling everything. He was allowed to have a family, which is what he always wanted. And therefore, yeah, it’s still a negative world with a lot of conflicts in it, but those are the same conflicts that his peers, who were not hunted down by Voldemort, also had.
Grace: Right, it’s like, What were you expecting ‘All was well’ to mean? Everything’s absolutely perfect and no bad exists in the world?
Lorrie: So he—unlike Dumbledore and Snape, who were paying for their own sins from youth and therefore gave up some stuff, they enabled Harry and Draco to go on and have more than they themselves did because of their own self-sacrifices, and it worked. For both Harry and Draco, there were times where I wasn’t so sure it would work, but it did. So that was ‘all was well.’ Then when we come to Cursed Child, I think, ‘okay, this is the 8th story for me in that it’s answering the question: Okay, so here’s that baby. What’s it like when he becomes a father and he parents a child of the same age that he was going through when we knew him? What’s that going to look like? For yourself, you can get over your trauma, but when you had provide parenting for your child that you did not receive, and it’s not just that you didn’t get it, but in place of proper parenting you had unusual trauma that was completely unlike what almost anyone else went through, how is that going to look? What’s that experience going to be?’ To me, this completely answers that question. It may not answer the question of “Who is Albus?” or “Who is Scorpius?” or “How did everybody else turn out?” It’s just a question of, “Hey, whatever did happen to that baby?” “Well, he had kids.” “Really?! What did he do when they were that age?” “Eh… It wasn’t that easy for him!”
Sawyer: You know, it’s funny. In sort of… a lot of times, people who are sexually abused as children, it’s depressive for their entire lives. And then when they have kids that are that age, it is very triggering for them. So it’s— that’s legit.
Lorrie: It’s something that actually happens to people.
Grace: So kind of his shitty parenting is similar to that, you mean.
Lorrie: You ever see cats that were raised by dogs, and they can’t clean themselves?
Sawyer: They can’t clean themselves? No, I’ve never seen that.
Lorrie: Like… you see cats that were raised by cats, they lick their fur and they’re clean. Meanwhile, if you are a dog owner, you have to bathe your dog. But I’ve seen cats who as kittens were raised by dogs and they smell and you have to wash them.
Lorrie: They didn’t get taught to clean themselves. It’s simply not there. Good parenting is not instinct. It’s learned, and it takes forever. You can’t just get it from– Sirius provided some really beautiful moments that parents are supposed to provide, but he wasn’t the real parent; he didn’t have the authority; it only happened for a couple years. Most of what Draco knows how to do for Scorpius–because Lucius Malfoy, despite being a nazi, was a father, and did go to bat for his kid… by bribing ministers and trying to get people killed. But the point was: Somebody’s threatening my child and that hurts me, and I don’t want my child to be hurt. So Draco knows what to do with Scorpius, even if he’s not going to do it the way Lucius did. For Harry, that’s simply not there. Nobody ever did that for him. Sirius didn’t have the authority, and then he goes to Dumbledore and he says, “You were my dad!” And Dumbledore’s like, “Umm, I wasn’t?”
Grace: Look, we don’t have any real examples of good fathers in the original seven books, in my opinion. We talked about this earlier–not in this episode, excuse me; we talked about this off the episode. And you said Lupin was probably a good dad, but–
Sawyer: For ten minutes.
Grace: That’s what I’m saying. When I really think about it, I don’t have any good examples of a good father figure in the whole series.
Lorrie: Hagrid’s dad.
Grace: Hagrid’s dad. But again–
Sawyer: I mean, that’s really obscure.
Lorrie: We’re reaching.
Grace: Right, reaching, it’s a good example. But we’ve never seen him in action. We never have seen him present.
Lorrie: Yeah, we don’t see it, we hear about it. And it’s apparent from Hagrid’s ability to nurture that somebody did a good job on Hagrid.
Sawyer: That’s right. He was a good parent to Norbert.
Lorrie: Yeah. I mean, that’s his whole purpose. One reason why I consider it canon is because from the point of view of the overarching series, I think it’s the story of Harry, and yeah, this is what I want to know: what did happen to that person? He got over a lot of stuff through enormous effort, mostly on his own with good help, and then he went on and had kids. So that’s one reason, and here’s the other reason why I think it’s canon: I think that the content of Cursed Child is deliberately set up to tell us that very little in it is canon, that very little in this play that happens is canon. Most of it is AU, things that are done and then undone. For example: the things that I know shocked faithful readers, like Cedric Diggory becoming a Death Eater — the single kid who we knew from the series that would NEVER become a Death Eater. He’s become one in this AU, which gets undone, and the whole thing about– okay, Voldemort and Bellatrix reproduced in a mammalian viviparous fashion. HOW?! And that also gets undone. And that’s subtle, that’s not explicitly stated, but it’s another AU. All of these AUs that are created by children trying to imagine what their parents went through without even having the means to live the lives that their parents did. Trying to think about possibilities, struggling to make stories through which they could understand why their parents feel the way they do. These are AUs that can be created or undone based on what you understand of each other. So yeah, there’s a universe in which Cedric Diggory became a Death Eater, I guess, or which Voldemort had sexual intercourse, if that’s possible.
Sawyer: Sounds sexy when you put it like that!
Lorrie:… and that Bellatrix, who was showing while she was– yeah, I don’t–I think it’s very deliberately shown to make no logical sense to people who lived through Harry’s teen years, which would be the readers of books 1-7. Because the person imagining this didn’t.
Grace: Is your theory that they didn’t use a Time-Turner?
Lorrie: No, my theory is that a Time-Turner is allegory for trying to put yourself, mentally, back into another time so that you can understand things.
Sawyer: So is it kind of like that psychological technique of putting yourself into that person’s chair and then having a conversation?
Lorrie: Well, it’s also the kind… Lies about a person’s family can affect people’s lives, even when they’re not true. Suppose all of your life you were told that your father was this one person, and then you discover, a long time later, no, actually your father was this other person that your mother only met once, and you have to go find out who that person was. But all your life, you’re trying to look for yourself in the person you were told was your father, so all of these stories can create effects in your life whether or not they’re true, and then you learn new information that changes things. And I think that’s sort of what’s happening with the Time-Turner here is Albus, he doesn’t listen to anything Harry has to say; he can’t. He’s trying to understand it on his own terms based on things that he’s trying to piece together about people he’s never met, who died before he was born. He can’t imagine things. For example, he doesn’t know Voldemort as we readers know Voldemort. He doesn’t know that Voldemort was so inhumane as to be inhuman. He can’t imagine that those of us who have experienced Voldemort from Harry’s teenage point of view are like, “NO, that man did NOT have children! He was trying to be immortal; he didn’t even think he needed to reproduce, because reproduction is for mortals. He wouldn’t have wanted–that’s not how snakes reproduce!”
Grace: And he wants it to be HIS legacy, it’s always about him and him being powerful, so I can’t imagine him being like, “Oh, lemme have a kid so that if I die, someone else can benefit from my power!”
Lorrie: It’s really, really hard to imagine, and we also know so much about the weird attitude of Bellatrix toward children and babies that it’s all of these horrifying thoughts that we have trouble with because we have experienced things through Harry’s teen POV, and we’ve met Voldemort through Harry’s perspective, and Albus hasn’t. He doesn’t–and this happens to children of war generations–you can’t know how bad these things were if you weren’t there, and your parents don’t want you to because it was awful.
Grace: I’ve got goosebumps.
Lorrie: So I’m thinking that the weird things that are hard to accept and hard to fit into Potterverse as we knew them from Harry’s teen years, that appear in Cursed Child, are showing us these things may or may not have happened. But the difficulty that Albus has understanding the reality that Harry lived through, for one thing, should help us understand how hard it was for Harry as an orphan in, say, Prisoner of Azkaban, to realize that his life was being controlled by people and decisions that were made before he was born — by his parents’ generation, by people who are dead or in prison, that nobody is telling him anything. So why is this Potions professor making his life miserable? Why is Lupin lying? All these things are happening, everybody knows it but him, no one’s telling him anything, and that’s– now we see Albus. Okay, some of that was because Harry had an exceptional situation. Some of it is just because that’s what happens, and you don’t know what your parents went through, and especially when it was as traumatic as what Harry went through, you can’t convey it to your child. And if you try to, you’re going to– it’s really not easy, it’s not probably possible to understand that your father was in mortal peril. I mean, we see that Albus gains more and more understanding through the play, as he is in situations where he can feel mortal peril, and then he realizes, “Oh, my father felt this?” And the more he feels that, the more he understands it. But Albus wasn’t actually in mortal– I mean, these were chosen Time-Turner trips which, because they were undone, turned out to be these side AUs. They don’t turn out to be realities that he’s stuck in. But he gets to undo them because each time, he has some maturity and some understanding that enables him to go back and undo it. Every time that there’s a scene change, it’s because there’s new information for Albus or Scorpius that enables them to go back to their earlier misunderstanding and, at that point, clear up some of the bad artifacts that came about because of their misadventures.
Grace: That reminds me of the one thing I would change in the book. Like the book, there was one scene that I felt was missing, which is Albus seeing Harry at his age forced into a decision for protecting someone. I wanted to see Albus understand his dad directly in a scene where Harry’s in mortal peril. I wanted him to understand in a more clear way watching this– I wanted to see Albus see Harry at his exact age and be like, okay. I feel that would be such a–
Sawyer: It’d be gratifying for him, or it would help him understand.
Grace: Yeah, I guess that’s what I wanted. That’s the only thing I would change. I wanted him to directly see his dad at his age. Did you guys have things, if you could change something?
Sawyer: I’d like to see Neville.
Grace: You’d like to see Neville?
Lorrie: I wish that Ron hadn’t been written as a clown.
Sawyer: Yeah, he was a doofy uncle, like…
Grace: Well, a lot of people didn’t like it, but I actually thought that you got it or something.
Lorrie: I think the clown element of Ron is really important but it’s only one. The Ron that I knew from the series 1-7, he has a clown element, he has a very touching, emotional element. He has depth and instincts in areas that the other characters don’t that he contributes but he doesn’t do it in an overbearing way. That’s part of his personality, so I felt like the deeper notes of his character were not represented in the play, and that only the clown element was represented, and that felt unbalanced to me. He was also portrayed as ignorant or clueless a little too much. That’s not the balance I like in my Ron. So I would have like a little bit more gravitas from this Ron.
Grace: What about you, Sawyer? You said Neville.
Sawyer: Actually, I would like to see what happened to Neville and Luna. Was the gist that Ron had taken over Weasley’s joke shop? Yeah, I didn’t care for that. I would like to have seen him doing his own thing.
Lorrie: Well, they did say — and this was another thing that I saw Cursed Child address directly from the epilogue–it had always bothered me so badly that Potterverse is completely patronymic, that you don’t ever see a witch take — all witches marry wizards and take the wizard’s last name without exception. The only possible room for question there is, what did Tonks call herself after she married Lupin? I don’t know.
Grace: Well, didn’t Hermione also, in this book, hyphenate?
Lorrie: Not in Deathly Hallows, so the first time that I see Rose Granger-Weasley, I’m like, So that makes it on purpose, that Rowling made it a patronymic society in books 1-7 as opposed to an assumption for Rowling’s part that she assumed we’d all share. It made it intentional.
Grace: Which was the next era?
Lorrie: That yes, she was presenting a very patriarchal society in which all the women had to take their husband’s names and that Hermione, of course, would say, ‘No, I’m going to do something different.’ And that, especially because so many plot points in the first 7 books depend upon the mother’s last name being erased.
Sawyer: Oh, that’s true.
Lorrie: So, I wanted it to be true that this was intentional and we were meant to notice that it was considered not an option. But then as soon as we meet Rose Granger-Weasley: See, there you go, yes, yes. I feel that that canonized the reading of Potterverse of which all women taking their husband’s surnames was a comment on the patriarchy. And we see that further underscored when Draco says, “Everyone thought that my father and I wanted to continue the Malfoy family line. We really couldn’t have cared less about that.” Because there are some characters — Snape and Sirius, and now Draco — who really don’t care about the family line dying out.
Grace: Sorry, I’m just thinking about Sirius. Of all the characters, Sirius is like, “Yeah, we can die, we can all just die!” Oh, it’s not funny, it is funny. I’m sorry.
Lorrie: That’s like Phineas Nigellus saying, does that mean that my great great grandson, the last of the Blacks, is dead and our family line is dead? And like, Well, yeah, not that he cares about the family line. And Snape, too. Who cares? He’s so not patriarchal. And it turns out that neither is Draco. All he cared about was a happy family for his wife and him. He really didn’t care about a family name or anything.
Sawyer: But that makes sense, though.
Lorrie: It does.
Grace: I really wanna talk about Draco, of course.
Grace: But before we do, I wanna go back to where you bring up women. I read up online some criticism, which is that when the play was cast, we all got really exci–hopefully if you’re good, you got really excited about–
Sawyer: If you’re a good person.
Grace: If you’re a good person, you got really excited about Hermione being cast by a Black actress, and then some people were really upset writing about–
Sawyer: Racists. Racists were upset.
Grace: Oh, no, no, no. After that– yeah, racists were upset. I don’t care about that, I don’t wanna talk about that. After reading Cursed Child, some fans were upset because they were like, “You cast these Black actresses as Rose and Hermione, you got us all excited for this progressive story, and there are not a lot of women in the story.” I read this criticism, a lot of people said there weren’t actually that many scenes with women in them. I do think Hermione had a big role. So I’m not saying I necessarily agreeing with it, but do you guys think there were enough women?
Sawyer: Hermione, Ginny, Rose…
Grace: But Ginny’s not really in it, though. Again, she’s in a couple scenes.
Sawyer: Yeah, it’s possible that the cart witch has more scenes that Ginny–
Grace: I love her so much.
Lorrie: I realized this morning I am the cart witch… Oh, boy.
Grace: That’s the character you are.
Lorrie: I am!
Grace: That’s totally true. You’re– it’s amazing. I’d be so happy.
Lorrie: I’ve never seen myself in the Potterverse before.
Grace: I don’t really see myself as a specific character.
Sawyer: I relate on a deep level to Neville.
Grace: I can actually see that one. I talked to Emma about it. I’ve never really connected to a specific character. I joke about being Slughorn, but that’s not actually how I see myself. The character I’ve most connected to was Dumbledore. Of any actual… I feel like that character.
Sawyer: Because of your swank wardrobe?
Grace: Because of my swank wardrobe.
Sawyer: I knew it.
Lorrie: Oh yeah, the high-heeled boots! First shoes we ever see him wear!
Grace: But no, I first saw that tweet that you did this morning, and said, Yup, that’s accurate!
Lorrie: Just saying. That’s for stealing pumpkin pasties.
Grace: Back to–I’m not saying–
Grace: Yeah, she brings… to all the Harry Potter events she doesn’t host, she’ll just bring all the Harry Potter treats.
Sawyer: I thought you were referring to the scary roof scene, and I was like, Umm…
Lorrie: No, I am! I am.
Grace: Both. Definitely both.
Lorrie: Yeah, we have my kids sneaking off somewhere, thinking that they’re going to do it and me showing up: “Hello, children.”
Sawyer: Have a pumpkin pasty bomb!
Lorrie: “Get back where you’re supposed to be. You think you can outwit me? HA!”
Grace: So I think — I love that. It made me so happy. It was so true. I don’t think I agree with that, especially Albus seeing it as… This is still Harry’s story, this is still him as a father. I don’t think there were not enough women in the scenes. I still think I can see the play, so it’s kinda hard to say.
Sawyer: Yeah, well, Delphie, Delphine, Delph–
Sawyer: Delphi. Yeah, she’s a woman. There are also not that many characters, to be honest, that play a major role.
Grace: Plus, if we’re going to–if it’s a play, they can’t have every actor. They can’t have Luna and Trelawney or whatever, you know, all these other women in it.
Sawyer: I wish.
Grace: Because you’d have to hire all those actors. I don’t know. What do you think, Lorrie?
Lorrie: I saw a story, a separate story, that I would love to see. Which isn’t the story that this play tells. Ginny and Hermione are a lot more open and sympathetic to Draco than Harry.
Grace: I loved that.
Lorrie: And Ron, I mean obviously. But when Ginny said that after Astoria died, she owled Draco, saying, What can we do? And that just got me, it got me so much, because we didn’t know that. Did Harry know that? Then we find out that Harry must’ve known it because the answer that Draco sent back was, “Tell you husband to make a statement that my child is not Voldemort’s baby.” So Ginny must have presented that to Harry, who said, “No, we’re not going to do that.” And then there’s the Dramione moment at the end. Draco and Hermione have a lot more easy time interacting than Draco and Harry.
Grace: So many wizard rock songs playing in my head right now that it’s confusing.
Lorrie: Especially Ginny, that Ginny understood Draco a lot better, to me, that is a whole other universe, a whole other four-act play that could be written that’s not Harry’s story, which means, “okay, that specifically showed me that this isn’t supposed to be THE story. This is Harry’s story with really emotional references to other stuff going on.” I wasn’t disappointed by it, however. I’m still marveling over the experience that when I was reading the play, I was picturing Hermione and Rose as Black.
Grace: Yup. Immediately from going in, it was like–
Sawyer: It’s really cool.
Lorrie: There is nothing to indicate it, but this is a favor that they have done for me.
Grace & Sawyer: Yeah.
Lorrie: Yeah. You have a Time-Turner, now we go back to fourth-year Hermione watching the Tri-Wizard Tournament, and we get to imagine that we know for a fact that we’re picturing a Black girl.
Sawyer: That’s so cool.
Lorrie: That really got me, and to me, that’s maybe THE story of this particular production, is that that change has been made in my mind.
Sawyer: What’s really cool, too, that regardless of what alternate universe they were in, Ron had biracial kids. I thought that was really, really cool.
Lorrie: Yeah, and even in that one, the “spare,” the new spare, is played by an Asian guy. Like, Okay. Is that his name, Craig Bowker, Jr.? The guy who does all the homework for the Scorpion King? The new spare.
Grace: It’s interesting though, because in Hollywood, at least, the most underrepresented groups among actors are Asian men.
Lorrie: It’s not a huge change, but with racial representation in Potterverse, I am still at basic 001, I am taking everything. And we’ve read people saying, “Gosh, the name Panju opens up a whole can of worms.” Like — it’s not a name. It’s not a person’s name. It’s this really weird, “all brown people are alike,” “let’s just pick a name and go with it” kind of weirdness.
Grace: Oh, really?
Lorrie: Yeah, it was a lot of people saying, “Oh, this is kind of bad and insulting.”
Grace: I guess I said we were going to go back to Draco now.
Sawyer: Something that I found really cool about Draco was not just how much of a caring father he was, but also seemingly what a caring husband he was. I thought that it was cool to see that yes, he was concerned that his son was being dragged and called Son of Voldemort. But also his wife’s reputation was on the line, and what did that mean for her. Then when she was ill, how he was– I don’t know. I just like Cursed Child Draco a lot.
Grace: Yeah, I wanna talk about Draco for a lot of reasons. First of all, I think his parenting was awesome, especially in contrast to Harry’s. My favorite line was from him. Also, as someone who was once a Draco fangirl and then was like, “I don’t wanna be like that, Team Neville,” like you fan crush, it was cool to see him as the person that I want him to be. He got to be the person that I, in my own girl crush brain, hoped that he was. But yeah, my favorite line that he said, when they’re talking about their friendship, he’s talking about being jealous of the trio and their friendship. He said to them that they shined, “You shone so bright and my friends were idiots basically, and it just wasn’t fair.” It made me so happy because it made so much sense. Draco is smart, it’s never been a question that he’s an intelligent kid, and he just never got to have that kind of friendship. And him being so honest about that jealousy– I just thought that whole thing was beautiful. And If you’re a kid in school ever and there was a group of friends that, even if you hated them, that love each other so much and had so much fun, you can’t help but be jealous of them.
Sawyer: I just turned to it.
Grace: What was the line?
Sawyer: It says: “Two lumps who wouldn’t know the end of a broomstick from another. You — the three of you — you shone, you know? You liked each other, you had fun. I envied you and those friendships more than anything else.”
Grace: I loooooove that part.
Sawyer: He goes on to say: “My father thought he was protecting me. Most of the time, I think you have to make a choice, at a certain point, of the man that you want to be. And I tell you that, at the time you need to be a parent or a friend, and if you’ve learned to hate your parent by then and you have no friends, then you are all alone. And being alone, that’s hard. I was alone, and it sent me to a truly dark place for a long time. Tom Riddle was also a lonely child. You may not understand that, Harry, but I do and I think Ginny does, too.”
Grace: Ginny does, too.
Lorrie: I love that.
Sawyer: Ginny says he’s right, and Draco says, “Tom Riddle didn’t emerge from his dark place, and so Tom Riddle became Lord Voldemort. Maybe the black cloud Bane saw was Albus’ loneliness, his pain, his hatred. Don’t lose the boy; you’ll regret it. And so will he, because he needs you and Scorpius, whether or not he now knows it.”
Grace: So the black cloud, I wanna highlight that part.
Lorrie: So many, so many things to talk about. I wanna stick with Draco for a second. What I love about this Draco is that we can see every — The Draco of Cursed Child is completely foreshadowed by the Draco of the series for me. And I know not everyone sees it that way, but for one thing, the Draco of the series is really funny. He’s witty and he’s clever, and he’s insightful. It’s hard to see because, for example, he puts his wit into that song he makes about Ron, which is vicious. But he is the kind of person whose mind is always going. And his tenderness toward Astoria, we see that in Narcissa always being so tender toward Lucius, even when she has really good reason to be angry with him. But he has gotten these things from his extremely imperfect parents. I really like how we see who Draco can be if permitted, and I also like that we got the sign very early on, an alternative to the balding hairline for the epilogue, we get that he has a ponytail. It’s like, “Okay, we’re letting you know that just enough has shifted so that your brain can accept that this is a different story.” Just like different lines get assigned to different characters on Platform 9 ¾, it’s like, “Okay, I remember this. This isn’t the way I remembered,” which is saying: Yeah, memory is like that sometimes. Different perspective, different time, different characters; you think you remember it. Do you? Does it matter? Does it mean something different now? But yeah, Draco’s characterization that highlights likeable elements of him from the original series: one of my favorite things.
Grace: How do you think his parenting is contrasting Harry’s?
Lorrie: Draco acts like someone who knows what it feels like to have parents stand up for you. He’s like, “okay, when something happens to my child, I’m going to say, ‘You know what would help? Do this.’” Whereas when Harry had terrible rumours about him, nobody was able to stand up for him, nobody had the right. Sirius was supposed to be– I don’t know where. Sirius had no personhood to stand up and say anything, and the times he tried, he got into a fight with Molly Weasley, and he got into a fight with Snape, the two times that he tried to stand up for Harry, saying– and Dumbledore overrode him. At the end of Goblet of Fire, when Dumbledore was like, “Harry has to recite everything bad that happened to him tonight,” and Sirius is like, “Can you wait? He’s really, really upset and tired.” And Dumbledore says, “It has to be now. I understand, but it does have to be now.” Dumbledore is right, so Sirius backs off. And then Sirius tries to argue with Molly, saying, “My godson is in mortal danger, and you want to keep him ignorant,” and Molly’s like, “You’re not his father.” And then he tries to tell Snape, “Don’t give my kid a hard time in Occlumency lessons,” and then the two of them nearly beat each other up. That was really bad. So that’s the closest that Harry gets. Sometimes Molly tries to stand up for Harry, but that’s always not quite right. And Harry appreciates it, but it’s not quite right. So he doesn’t know this feeling, but Draco does. Draco’s dad joined the PTA because he didn’t trust how the school was going to treat his kid, and then bribed everybody and Imperiused everybody. That’s an experience that Draco had at a really specific daily level. It’s not just a one-time thing. You had to grow up that way seeing it. He saw his cold, bitchy, snotty mother be lonely and scared because her husband was in jail. She could’ve blamed Lucius, like, “Oh my god, the Death Eaters are overrunning Malfoy Manor.” She could’ve been really angry with him. And instead, she just stayed with them and the unspoken message throughout book 7 that Narcissa was giving Lucius and Draco was, “Keep your head down. We’re going to get through this. It doesn’t matter: don’t react. We’re going to get through. The only thing that matters is that we get through it.” And then she got them through it. Draco knows that, so he’s applying that to Astoria and to Scorpius because it was really powerful what he got that Harry, you know–Voldemort killed his parents, he never got that, and he blames Dumbledore for not giving it to him. Even though Dumbledore’s like, “I wasn’t supposed to, I was your headmaster.” That’s the curse that goes, “You want to do well by your kids, but if something happened to you that interfered with your ability to learn how to do it, then you’re going to pass on some really bad failures to your parenting, even though you desperately don’t want to. That’s your curse, and your kid is going to suffer, even though nobody deserves it. The parent doesn’t deserve to do that to the kid, the parent doesn’t want to. Kid doesn’t deserve it; it’s going to happen. That’s your curse.”
Sawyer: Thank God I’ll never have children.
Grace: I’m listening to you talk about this and like, I’m having this exact same thought. “Shit, I don’t wanna have kids.”
Lorrie: If Harry Potter can have children, you guys can, too.
Grace: Also I thought, Why didn’t he go into therapy? While you were talking…
Lorrie: Because his scar didn’t hurt. Until now. Because James and Lily weren’t in his shadow area, he understood James and Lily. It wasn’t until Albus started to not communicate with him on the platform, about to go into second year after all summer saying nothing, that Harry understood there was a problem and his scar was hurting. It’s not until something came up that it was in an area that he wasn’t equipped. I was going to say something and I totally don’t–
Grace: Well, you started to say shadow.
Lorrie: You were going to say something, and then I said, No, wait, Draco. And now I lost it.
Grace: No, you were talking about Bane’s black cloud reference.
Lorrie: Wait, it was Voldemort/Tom Riddle being a lonely child. That’s it, that’s the line, that’s the insight that we get from Draco, Tom Riddle was a lonely child, and that Ginny understood that but Harry probably didn’t. And Harry starts to understand that in book 6, and Dumbledore stops him in a way that’s cruel but probably necessary, and Dumbledore says, “Are you feeling sorry for Tom, for Voldemort?” And Harry’s like, “No, no, no.”
Grace: I wouldn’t do that, I wouldn’t do that.
Lorrie: In his position, he’s trying to build up boundaries between him and Voldemort, you know, to get sucked into, “Oh, poor Voldemort killing everybody.” But Draco had that different perspective and it’s after Draco says, Tom Riddle was a lonely child, that Harry has a dream in which we get THE quote from Voldemort that’s pulled from the end of Goblet of Fire that fourteen-year-old Harry overheard. Harry, when he was fourteen, witnessed Voldemort saying to the Death Eaters, “I smell the stench of guilt in the air.” That’s the reproach of the child who wasn’t cared for by people who promised they would take care of him after he had been lost in the forest with no body, and his Death Eaters had sworn that they love him and they didn’t come look for him. Because Harry’s been dreaming that of Petunia, too. Petunia says the child has cursed us, which is completely backwards. Of course, when he’s been dreaming of them running away from the letters, Harry’s dreaming of the time that Petunia and Vernon and Dudley were running away from the letters, and Petunia says about Harry, the child has cursed us, and of course poor little Harry has done nothing of the sort. That’s her guilt talking. And Harry does the same thing to Scorpius, putting accusations on a child that has done nothing. Just that if you’re a guilty parent or adult caregiver who has not been fair to a child under your care, your fear of them will make you think that maybe they are cursing you, and that line from Voldemort saying that he smelt the stench of guilt connected to Draco saying Tom Riddle was a lonely child. It’s saying that, yeah, Voldemort had the same sensation of being angry at people who were not providing the care that he needed, even if they weren’t the appropriate people to provide it.
Sawyer: This makes me feel like I can 1) never have kids…
Sawyer: And 2) maybe I’m going to start a club.
Grace: A club?
Sawyer: A Death Eaters club.
Grace: Oh, god. Sawyer!
Sawyer: I can’t do that. I’m a Gryffindor.
Grace: Well, so is Wormtail, so… you could be. You could.
Sawyer: Don’t compare me to Wormtail. He’s the WORST.
Grace: Let’s go back to that passage. There’s a lot in that tiny part, we’re talking about friendship, we’re talking about Draco growing into someone more empathetic, we’re talking about lonely children and how Ginny can understand and maybe Harry can’t. There’s this key line about Bane talking about a black cloud over Albus. You have some very interesting theories on this, about what that represents.
Lorrie: When the kids and Delphi are trying to find the time turner in Hermione’s bookcase, there are two riddles, and one riddle says “Dementors”. The other riddle says “Shadow,” which makes me think that we’re supposed to understand this from the Carl Jung definition of “shadow”, which is the part of yourself that you’re so afraid of that you can’t be aware of it consciously, and it stays in your unconscious. And if it’s out of balance, you can behave in damaging ways based on that. That’s what’s happening–that’s the black cloud around Albus, that he’s being damaged by Harry’s shadow. Harry is acting out of things that he’s too scared to face. Usually Harry’s shadow is most easily understood to be Voldemort, the part of Harry that he’s afraid of, and he’s afraid that he really is Voldemort. For this play, by the end, when he’s able to transform into Voldemort knowing that he’ll be able to transform back, that’s the triumph of the play, that he’s been able to bring the fears out of his shadow unconsciousness into dealing with it consciously so that it can stop hurting Albus. But at the point when Bane is telling him that there’s a black cloud, it’s so much part of Harry’s shadow, it’s so impossible for him to deal with consciously that his identification of that black cloud is basically, “Anything but Harry Potter.” “What’s that black cloud? Is it werewolves? Trolls? I know, it’s Scorpius, son of Voldemort!” And McGonagall is horrified, Albus is horrified, Draco is bewildered and furious that he’s breaking up this friendship because Harry’s definition is, “Oh, the answer is anything but me.”
Sawyer: I’d love to read all your analysis of this book.
Lorrie: Meanwhile, while Harry’s fear– his shadow is Voldemort, so therefore we get all this “return of Voldemort,” which is that Harry is now scared again in a way he has not been afraid for 22 years. And that part of his psyche is gaining so much power that it’s becoming personified for him as Voldemort again. But meanwhile, my reading of Delphi is that she is Albus’s shadow. And by creating a character that is “Delphi,” that changes in her identity throughout the play according to what Albus happens to know or need to know at the time that he’s working things out, so that the final confrontation between Delphi and Voldemort is actually Albus being able to see what’s really going on emotionally between him and Harry — without having to force both of them to dredge it up into the consciousness and have a conversation that’s really too much to ask of real life human beings. Because the moment that Delphi appears, it comes right after the words “Fiction” and “sorry.” Albus, who is upset with his father, is overhearing Harry talking to Amos Diggory, and he overhears Harry lie, and Amos Diggory says, “You have a Time-Turner,” and Harry says, “Everything you’ve heard about that Time-Turner is a fiction. I’m sorry.” And the moment that Albus overhears that imperfect father say “fiction”, he creates fictions of his own, which are all the AUs that follow. The immediate line after that, Delphi appears. It’s not even that he meets her; she wasn’t there before and suddenly she appears. “Hi, I’m Delphini.” So this creature, this entity, Delphi, has several names: she has Delphi, she has Delphini Diggory, and she makes up some really half-assed story about how they made fun of her name Delphini Diggory at school, which is half-assed on purpose. Trying to tell us, okay, this story doesn’t match up, you’re supposed to think. And then she says, “Oh no, I never actually was at school.” All these things don’t match up. And she’s the Augurey. She has different names and identities based on what Albus is working through at the time, and at the time that she first appears, what he needs is somebody to be emotionally with him in grief and anger that his father isn’t having empathy for a father-child dynamic. At that point, as far as he’s concerned, Harry Potter is evil and a failure, and Delphi’s there going, “Ah, so you’re related to Harry Potter?” So that’s what he needs then, and then there’s a moment that I knew threw a lot of people. Suddenly in this play, Delphi has silvery blue hair and is a romance figure, and people were like, “That’s the stupidest thing I’d ever heard of! She’s a Mary Sue!”
Sawyer: I don’t really know what that is, if I’m being honest.
Grace: Mary Sue?
Sawyer: I mean, a little bit, but from comics, right?
Lorrie: Or from fanfiction written by people who are working within a given universe but also fantasizing about themselves as the most attractive and unusual person in this universe, in their fiction.
Grace: Who did everything.
Lorrie: Yeah. And there is a general collective sense of embarrassment about this kind of character because many of us have this in our pasts and are a little bit embarrassed about this. And it has a bad reputation, and there’s a sexist connotation to putting down Mary Sues, too, because people will say, “Oh, fanfiction, it’s all about Mary Sues, it’s all about stupid teenage girls and their fantasies of themselves having silvery hair or whatever, or wings.”
Grace: That do everything. But then it’s like, Captain America does everything, but we don’t call him a Mary Sue.
Sawyer: That’s actually just what I was thinking.
Lorrie: And then people are saying, Exactly what is Bruce Wayne?
Sawyer: I don’t know. A tortured Mary Sue?
Lorrie: The whole fantasy of–
Grace: He’s rich and strong and smart and…
Lorrie: Yeah. And vulnerable. So this whole concept of a point-of-view character that is the most dominant new figure in a piece of fiction is called Mary Sue in a way that is sometimes sexist, and the silvery blue hair and the attractiveness and the romancing with Albus and Scorpius going, “Uh, I’m not sure I’m comfortable with this.” That is sort of an indicator like, Okay, this is one of the things that Albus is working through. Because she’s not described as having silvery blue hair the whole time; she’s suddenly that.
Grace: That part was jarring.
Lorrie: It’s very odd. But then before that and after that, Albus isn’t needing that. The first thing we see is that she is the kind, loving caregiver of Amos Diggory who’s been wronged by Harry Potter, which is the first entry that Albus has into this story. Then near the end — so heartbreaking — we see this girl saying, “Voldemort, father, I’ve spent my entire life trying to be somebody that you could be proud of when you finally pay attention to me.”
Sawyer: And it’s Harry Potter pretending to be Voldemort.
Lorrie: Exactly, and it’s Albus sustaining this character, Delphi.
Grace: Damn, that–ooooh. That hit me in the gut.
Lorrie: And the more Delphi goes to Harry and says, “Father, father, I want you to look at me as a child,” the more trouble Harry has maintaining the Voldemort form.
Lorrie: Because what Delphi’s asking of him is not something that the actual Voldemort could have provided. That he can’t do this as Voldemort. That’s not who Voldemort was.
Grace: Are there any other shadow storylines that you want to talk about in Cursed Child? Any other characters with shadows or plot points?
Lorrie: So there’s an AU is which Scorpius goes alone.
Grace: There’s no Albus.
Lorrie: Which I’m thinking is because he has seen what Albus is doing with the AUs and seeing– they’ve had that argument where Scorpius says, “Oh, I’m angry at you, Albus. You think you’re the only one with father issues, you think your life is so shitty. Well, that’s very annoying, from my point of view.”
Grace: Go, Scorpius, GO!
Sawyer: Scorpius is my favorite character in this whole thing.
Lorrie: Except for the fact that Jack Thorne had authority to create an OC in Scorpius without the weight of having to match up with Rowling and the characters she created that people have loved for so long, and Scorpius is so much of a blank slate. He has some elements of Scorpius that he took from J.K. Rowling, but he had so much more leeway to create an original character — who is my favorite. He seems to be a runaway favorite with many people. I found it impossible not to love him.
Sawyer: He’s just so earnest.
Lorrie: And he’s complex, and he’s very, very self-aware and obviously brilliant. And the fact that he enjoys being a dork and is unapologetic about it. So we have Scorpius and we see this little hint from Draco saying, “Scorpius is a follower, not a leader, no matter what I try to instill in him.” And we’re like, “Draco, what do you know about being a leader?” We had Lucius expect– we already see in Chamber of Secrets, in Borgin & Burkes, how hard it is for Draco to live up to Lucius’s expectations of him to waltz into Hogwarts and be top student, even though annoying Hermione Granger is getting favoritism. We know that Draco always wanted that, to live up to his father’s expectations.
Grace: Yeah, but even Lucius doesn’t even live up to that expectation.
Lorrie: Although Lucius has the kind of power and wealth that he thinks his son should be able to reproduce at Hogwarts, and it’s not working. So Draco is putting this very weird expectation on his child, completely inappropriate considering that the mom is sick and then dead, that they have just barely survived this war, that his kid is lonely, that his mom has to teach him songs and buy him candy. And in all of that, even knowing that Scorpius is his real self and trying to love Scorpius at the same time, trying to tell him he has to be a leader? That’s not a thing that humans do. He got that from his dad; there’s a kind of dad he thinks he’s supposed to be. And he’s upset with Scorpius for not being a leader. So we have that one AU where there’s no Albus, and it’s just Scorpius going to face Draco. So what is this father who wants him to be a leader? And then discovering, ‘Oh gosh, a world in which it makes sense for a Malfoy to be a leader is a whole different world.’ And he goes and he has that all by himself, and then he goes and re-meets with Albus.
Grace: This just sparked a thing in my brain. I love Scorpius, but I don’t necessarily see him as a Slytherin. He doesn’t seem like a Slytherin at the same time, going further. When I was at GeekyCon, someone was talking about the different houses and what they should do in life, and I only remember the Slytherin one because I’m a Slytherin, and he said, “Slytherins shouldn’t be the leader. That power corrupts you.” So is Scorpius — does he have Slytherin traits, but he’s using them responsibly? Say something! I’m just thinking, I’m just thinking through all of this while I say it. Please say stuff. Help me!
Lorrie: Right after Scorpius and Draco have that conversation– that’s the conversation where Draco treats Scorpius the way he thinks he should. He’s physically punishing Scorpius. He drags Scorpius physically onto his desk. He‘s about to hit Scorpius, and then Scorpius brings up Astoria and says, “Mum always said you’re better than you let yourself think,” and that mention calms Draco and allows his sorrow to come out because he doesn’t want to be hurting Scorpius. Scorpius then says, “That’s not who we are. We shouldn’t be like this.” And then something comes into Draco’s face, and he looks at Scorpius and he says — really really super carefully, because Draco, he’s still a shill — he’s saying, “No, I didn’t do that Muggle killing, but I’m the one who’s going to have to answer for it.” And then he looks at Scorpius really carefully and says, “Whatever you doing, be careful.” And that’s a Slytherin thing, meaning ‘Know how to speak in allegory and know how to be subversive. Don’t be like poor Charity Burbage and say what you really think and then get killed for it. It’s too dangerous for that. Do this other thing. Be careful.’ That’s when we get Snape entering the narrative. Because it’s right after that that we get the Slytherin who shows how to be careful and to work toward that goal while not getting killed for it.
Grace: And to do good in the world with your Slytherin traits.
Lorrie: Just to know how to do it. Draw on that ability, because Scorpius, he does. We see him going, “Uh, for Voldemort and valor, I guess.” It’s very tough for him to play along, but you see him making himself do it and understanding all the time, ‘Okay, so a world in which I can’t be friends with Albus Potter is a world in which he wasn’t born, is a world in which I could’ve been a leader. The Malfoys were leaders. Because this is the world and oh my god, this is really terrible,” and it makes him understand, “that’s what my dad grew up as. When my dad was my age, this is what he had to do, and who helped him.”
Grace: Actually, Scorpius has this scene that I wanted Albus to have. I just put that together. Scorpius has that. Damn.
Lorrie: What Harry was asking of Albus was not — this is part of the curse. It’s not appropriate and it’s not possible, but you can’t avoid it. Harry wants his child to understand and legitimize what he went through. “This is my blanket.”
Grace: Yeah, take this. Feel my suffering.
Lorrie: “This is my blanket. My mother, my dead mother, would’ve wanted you to have it,” and Albus is like, “I don’t even know how to deal with this. This is so disgusting; get me out of here! This is the most uncomfortable thing I’ve ever experienced,” and Harry’s like, “No, don’t go!”
Sawyer: He also gives James the Invisibility Cloak and–
Lorrie: And Lily gets what she wants.
Sawyer: She gets fairy wings, so they get magical items, and he gets this crusty old blanket that is not magical. It has too much emotional significance, and he doesn’t necessarily understand the idea of non-magical luck, right?
Lorrie: He’s given Albus only what he, Harry himself, needs and nothing at all what Albus needs.
Grace: I was going to say, this shows how much I love you, but for Albus, it’s– this is you reaffirming how obsessed everyone is with your legacy and how obsessed you are with your legacy.
Lorrie: It’s like, You, young teenaged child, please help me, your father, get over some basic stuff, which is completely inappropriate and yet is something that happens. It’s the unavoidability of it and the horrible damage it does is the curse. Meanwhile, Albus quite rightly is like, “I’m not listening to a thing you have to say, because this is really bad and wrong.” So Scorpius and Draco can have that moment where Scorpius sees what his father went through because Scorpius has more support in his life to witness what his father went through. But for Albus, it’s much riskier because his fight originally was that Harry didn’t know how to appropriately express to Albus, “I wish you would understand what I went through.” What Albus gets instead is that he gets to watch the scene that his father wished people would understand about him, the original scene of Lily and James being murdered. So it’s not so much that Harry and Albus needed Albus to understand what Harry was like at thirteen or fifteen. They needed Albus to see why Harry is different from Albus’s generation, what caused it, and why Harry, at age 40, isn’t over it yet — because how do you get over it? And that you possibly can’t until you’re old enough to have your own children.
Grace: Can we bring it back to Snape?
Sawyer: Sure. I think nobody in this room is ever going to say no to that.
Grace: Does anyone want to add anything? Do you want to talk about queerbaiting before we close up?
Sawyer: Yeah, I do. I will say that I love this book. There was a ton of stuff there for me. I really loved the character of Scorpius. One of the things you had asked in your pre-show questions was why do so many people dislike it. That’s one of the things that I have seen around the interwebs, and something that I relate to as well. The whole time I was like, “oh, we’re going to get a gay romance. This is going to be, they’re going to wind up together. This is going to be great because it’s going to really validate the people who have shipped Harry and Draco and searched for themselves, and queer people who have searched for representation in this fandom, it just isn’t there in a very obvious way.” But I think that there are so many places that flirt with the idea of these characters being together that it was really disappointing to me that they opted not to validate that. I think that’s why a lot of queer people don’t like the book and I think it’s valid and real, and that’s my only real criticism of The Cursed Child.
Grace: I saw someone saying, “Well, we shouldn’t ship these characters together, it’s totally weird and creepy to ship children together.”
Grace: Yeah, so that was something I saw someone saying, and a bunch of people were like, “hey, listen, if your response is shipping these two characters together as queer, and you’re saying, ‘no, that’s crazy, they’re kids,” but then it’s okay for Scorpius to like Rose, that is why we have fanfiction. That is why queer people need to write fanfiction because they’re not represented and they need to feel like it somewhere. So if you’re like, “Oh no, you can’t possibly say that’s disgusting, they’re kids,” that’s kind of a problem here.
Sawyer: I call malarkey.
Lorrie: I had a hard time seeing how it wasn’t romance, the way that Scorpius and Albus were written. While I can buy that maybe it wasn’t, some of the inclusion of attraction towards Rose and Delphi felt a little too close to compulsory heterosexuality for me. Because it’s not like we saw chemistry or anything based on the attraction we saw between the characters, whereas there was so much chemistry of a romantic or not-romantic sort between Albus and Scorpius. I don’t have any problem with them not being a romantic couple. It’s that — when we look at the areas where people are watching Rowling’s universe to see which fan emotions she’s responding to. Okay, we have Black Hermione, which is a really significant beginning. We don’t have any more queer characters than we did before, and it’s not that anyone has any responsibility to write anything but their own play. But because this was such a profound dynamic between those two kids, the context–the scenes where Scorpius was interested in Rose, I didn’t feel like they added anything. They kind of distracted me like, “Why is that there? Eh.” It wouldn’t have taken from the play to remove that element.
Sawyer: Yeah, I agree.
Grace: Do we have any theories on why they did that, or are we just going to leave it?
Lorrie: I don’t know, I wish they had done– eh, whatever. I wish Dumbledore had been canonically gay.
Grace: We talk about that sometimes. You can’t just say, “Oh this character is gay” after, just to get those queer points.
Lorrie: Wizarding population cannot be that much straighter than the Muggle population. On the other hand, the thing that I have to say is you take the writer as who they are. You can do your own story, you can write your own stories, you can read other authors. Is this a surprise coming from Rowling? No. Is it a surprise coming from Jack Thorne? Well, we didn’t know before. Kind of a bummer.
Grace: I guess you can’t force the author into doing what you want. That’s kind of the lesson of this whole thing.
Lorrie: This is their text. It’s not the only text.
Sawyer: That’s why the Imperius curse doesn’t exist in real life.
Lorrie: But we know what’s like when people write under Imperius Curses, and it’s not good. People do get forced to write, and that is a real thing.
Grace: Like Donald Trump’s biography.
Sawyer: Shut her down, shut her down!
Grace: I can’t go an episode without mentioning Donald Trump. I’m sorry! Okay, I guess I’m just going to wrap it up by talking about Snape in Cursed Child. For those of you who don’t know, Lorrie wrote this book called Snape: A Definitive Reading, so she’s an expert on Snape, and I want to talk about how you felt about the scene with Snape. Also about Professor Hermione.
Lorrie: Professor Hermione Snape was one of the funniest things.
Sawyer: Oh my god!
Lorrie: There were a lot of hints at people becoming Snape-like. There are hints of Albus responding to bullying by becoming more Snape-like. But then when Hermione shows up, and if you stripped away the dialogue tags and you asked somebody who was saying these words, the thing that was most Snape-like was when she accused–was it Albus or Scorpius? No, it was Albus– [Wrong again! Scorpius! — LK] when she accuses a clearly unpopular child of having an imaginary friend. Completely uncalled for, more than mean. It also introduces the concept of imaginary friends, which is something that–I think it’s Delphi and Scorpius, that Delphi bonds with Scorpius over that later in one of her weird, fake, manipulative ways. I did always think that Hermione and Snape were written as characters very similarly to one another, and I did feel this — Yup. This is completely easy to see. Snape’s vindication in this play was one of the areas that I found to be least subtle. It reminded me of when, in Goblet of Fire, when J.K. Rowling had Viktor Krum pronounce Hermione’s name really deliberately because she was addressing in the text the fact that a lot of fans didn’t know how to say “Hermione.” So here, with the very deliberate explanation that was not allegorical at all, there was no subtlety to it; it’s a fantasy. Considering what Snape had to give up as he died, giving up any chance of knowing whether people would understand what he had done, this is one Time-Turner fantasy. Would it be a fantasy to go back in time and tell this person, “Yes, actually, we did find out what you did.” It’s this whole Eliza and Alexander Hamilton thing like, “Okay, have I done enough? Guess what? You’re dead, but we know now.” I saw that sort of as a corrective, saying there’s been so much debate about the nature of Snape and this is something that they wanted to make clear, I think, the writing team. There is a correct reading, which is that he did do something really big, and he would be moved to know that he was appreciated.
Grace: And that he would do it again.
Lorrie: Yeah, and that he was only doing it for Lily up to a point. Most of the time he was doing it for Lily, but not all of it. Yeah, I think it was sort of a desire to say, No, there is actually a correct reading. Here it is.
Grace: I like when he jokes about not being married to Ron.
Lorrie: Oh, god, that’s another weird, almost shippy moment. We have almost Dramione, we have almost Draco/Ginny, and we have almost Snape/Hermione there. There’s some…
Grace: “At least I’m not married to…”
Lorrie: Because clearly, if it was only the three of them working underground for all this time, then the intellectual companionship, it wouldn’t have been Ron. Not the way he’s being portrayed here.
Sawyer: No. He has spiked hair. He’s bad at being a rebel!
Grace: Okay, well.
Sawyer: So many feels.
Grace: Yeah, I teared up a couple times in the conversation.
Sawyer: My mascara’s gone.
Grace: I guess for anyone listening to it, we’d love to hear what you thought of the book. After listening to the episode, which will be what’s happening if you hear me saying these words. Let us know what you think, and let us know if this discussion changed any of your perspective or not.
— END OF INTERVIEW —